25 Replies to “Video: Discussing Discussion”

  1. Hey phil! One question… how to control tilt? whenever im grinding i can turn 100$ into 1500$ in a sesh and then my pocket aces get cracked for a 300$ pot and i cannot control my tilt and i will lose my entire BR! if you can give me tips on controlling tilt that would be great and following my twitter ineedajobman would be even better!

  2. Hey Phil !
    Thanks for what you are doing for the poker community! the vid was not that boring 🙂
    just wondering , how did u loose weight !? 🙂

  3. Hello Phil,
    Thanks for your insight in the whole situation, I really enjoy hearing your thoughts through this blog, please keep up the great work and keep us updated, hope to see another video up here soon!!

  4. Hi phil. Nice post.

    What we need to to improve entertainment value for players. For example webcams with audio or running it twice. Therese are important things!

    In your example of a 25/50 player. Like you said those people arent stupid and they inherently understand that most likely theyre loosing. Ok a global waitlist would eliminate their tables having the longest waitlists. But in your example when there is 0 or maybe 1 or 2 tables going the game will still form and break around him. There is no way to avoid that I think.

    However what we can do is providing entertainment value. For example people should chat more or like I said webcams with audio or other features that just make the playing experience more fun.

  5. Hey Phil,

    As you venture more into the world of online interaction as a public persona, don’t get caught up too much in “the crowd’s” negative reaction to stuff.

    On the Internet, no matter how good your suggestions or ideas, the majority of responses will always be complaining and pushback… unfortunately, people take any public celebrity opinion as a chance to “make a name for themselves” by disagreeing. There may be some reasonable critiques, but it’s hard to differentiate those from the reflexive vitriol, so stick with it and don’t sweat the whiners. So far your stuff has been forthright and insightful.

  6. Hello Phil!

    I have a few questions for you and i would be super-happy if you answered them!

    Do you believe poker is on its way of being solved?
    Certainly it is a game of incomplete information, but play-style wise do you think there will be a time when the optimal playstyle will be practiced by most people which would make poker into a guessing game when played by two equally skilled players? (Sorry for that massive sentence)

    How big difference in skill are you from other pros at your stakes? Is your edge big? And do you feel there is anyone that has a remarkable edge on your game?

    And last question for you phil! 🙂

    Did you ever have an “Aha” or Eureka moment in poker where you felt that you learned something groundbreaking that took you to new levels?

    I am sorry for asking so much questions but i am very interested on how you look at things and what you think and i would be very grateful for response :).

    I am (a fan i guess) and an avid reader of your new blog! I have big respect for you both as a person and poker player.
    You’re the best Phil! GL!

  7. Hey Phil, are you in Australia by any chance? Would love to have a chat with you at the aussie millions if you are! Also, I PM’d you on 2p2 under ‘chriseddy999’, have you read it?

  8. Global Waitlists:
    Enough people have explained why this would be a great change, because games become fairer(everybody plays everybody), more games will run, it discourages BTN wars etc etc. So I’m not going to go into that again. I do want to address the concern some of you have brought up about people still being able to bumhunt by just leaving tables they don’t like and requeing.
    It’s really easy to stop people from doing this. You just need to implement this rule:
    -Anytime you quit a table in a certain global waitlist. You will be unable to rejoin that global waitlist for the next 15 minutes. And if you’re currently waiting to get on more tables, you will also be removed from the waitlist.
    What this does is, it stops people from gameselecting too much. People cannot join the global waitlist to try and get on 10 tables, but then if they dislike the 2nd or 3rd table quit it, because it’d mean they’re stuck 1-2 tabling for the next 15 minutes.

    The HU Situation:
    While I still believe KotH will be much better than the current system, some of the discussion has convinced me that this is not the best possible solution. I’ve changed my mind and now believe some form of Round Robin/Rush will be best for HU. I’d like to get a discussion going for this idea instead.
    First of all the reason I’ve changed my mind is, because I’ve realised that indeed it is going to be very hard to get people to really play eachother under a KotH system. I believe people will play eachother more than is currently happening, but it’s probably not going to be a huge change, because a KotH system doesn’t truly force people to play eachother with the reward of getting an equal share of the fish.
    A round robin/rush poker system will definitely accomplish this. You HAVE to play x% of your hands against tougher players to be able to play the weaker ones. It’s also completely fair, because everybody plays an equal amount against everybody.
    The reason why I’ve disliked round robin/rush in the past is that you never truly get much history going, because you switch opponents so often and thus you’ll rarely get true long HU matches going. I’ve realized though that you’re never going to accomplish this at HU except for between the few people that actually want to play long HU matches against eachother.
    So, as long as you also give people the option to create private tables(already the case on PS in homegames) and as long as you force people to play at least a reasonable # of hands against eachother, say 100 per table, round robin should be an excellent REPLACEMENT for the current HU situation. I do think it should replace the current HU situation, not be an addition, or else it won’t solve much.
    Obviously, just like with global waitlists, there should be a penalty inflicted for people that quit a table. A 15 minute exclusion from the lobby sounds like a good one here aswell, but I think this might not be quite enough. Reason being, playing 100 hands usually takes >15 minutes, so while it’ll still hurt bumhunters, because they have to wait 15 minutes whenever they get paired up with someone they don’t want to play, they’re still going to avoid the majority of people, because a 15 minute wait is not as bad as playing 100 hands vs some1 better. You could increase the wait to 30 minutes or something, but that seems to be too long for people who want to take a break(especially fish will get pissed off by this, 30 min exclusion after taking a break).
    Another possible penalty would be paying a certain fee. Maybe x% of your remaining stack up to a certain maximum or a certain amount depending on how many hands are left. You could even combine this with a short time penalty. I’m not the biggest fan of having people pay to quit a table. I just don’t like the overall phylosophy of it, but in this case it may be the best solution. Anyone has any better ideas?

    Break instead of Sit-out:
    Whoever came up with this is brilliant imo. It solves the sitting out problem completely. The only negatives I’ve heard from people is that they think it doesn’t solve the problem, because people will just take a break when the weak spot is sitting out. Well, they can, but the money they save from not playing the tough game where the weak spot is sitting out will not weigh up against the money they lose from not playing all their other profitable games. Because taking a break becomes -EV, they’re forced to quit the table or play. Problem solved.
    I guess in a way people quitting when the weak spot sits out is still a minor issue, but you can’t stop people from doing this 100%. It’s definitely discouraged big time if you implement global waitlists aswell though!!

    Appart from fixing some issues in online poker, I also think every single one of these changes make the game more fun for everybody.
    -Global waitlists: I know I am much more inclined and superexcited to play 6m PLO when there’s 10 deep tables running at 5/10 or 10/20. EVERYBODY likes an actionpacked game. Global waitlists will get more games running and promote action.
    -Round Robin: People finally get to play HU instead of sitting around waiting. Certain people might argue games will become less profitable for them. Sure, this’ll be the case for some people, but they cannot argue they become less fun.
    -Break instead of Sitout: Isn’t this WAY more convenient than having to sitout on every table? It’s like synchronized tournament breaks for cash game players. Especially for 24tablers isn’t it way more convenient to only have to press 1 button to sit out on all tables?

    On top of this both Global Waitlists for 6max and Round Robin for HU promote the play of a lot more hands!! And I suppose break instead of sitout will also promote the play of slightly more hands when a weak spot is sitting out. What more can you ask for?

    A final note to the people saying it’s all about bringing more money into online poker:
    I don’t think you’ll find anyone disagreeing with you that more money flowing into poker is good for everybody. So if you want to get to the pokersites to advertise more and find new markets(they’re already doing this fyi), definitely go ahead, but do so in a seperate thread please. Reason being it’s a completely different thing from what we are discussing here. This thread is meant to change some things about online poker, to make it a better game(make it more fun, fix loopholes and promote the play of hands). As an added side benefit it might bring some extra money into poker from people who like the new changes and decide to play again or people who’ll start playing more.

  9. I play 6m NLHE, and one major problem that kills games is waiting for the MTing guy taking about 20 secs every single decision. After about 2 orbits many people just leave as it kills the flow, especially for the recreational player who wants to see hands and get involved.
    Maybe stricter time limits on some sites would help, or more tables less time in ur bank? This would b more favourable and exciting for the rec player and keep them at the table longer I expect

  10. I really appreciate your approach and efforts in trying to stimulate conversation on these issues, especially with the current state of online poker. I think you’re a really good person to facilitate these discussions as you come across as an open and fair guy. So good work and thank you!

    I agree with your comments about reg behavior around recreational players. As regs who have studied the game, we often set ourselves apart from the rec players because we know better, play better, etc. We see fish making bad decisions and often apply their poor logic and thinking of the game to the rest of their being as well. Many regs seem to forget the fact that the rec player who may not be the most intelligent poker player can, in fact, be a very intelligent human in other areas. Recreational players notice when games start and stop around them. They notice when they sit out, the rest of the table suddenly sits out too. This kind of behavior is not going to encourage the recreational players to continue playing…and when we are already having a hard time getting games going, why make it even harder on ourselves?

    That classless behavior from regs is really frustrating to me…. It seems to have gotten worse since BF as edges seem to be smaller. I’m just not sure how you can even begin to fix that?

  11. At least two of the comments above are x-posts from 2p2 (or vice versa) which I find kind of amusing.

    For some insight into what actual fish are thinking, compare the comments here to those on YouTube.

    Anyway, I think there is some merit to the idea that regulation and marketing might make a lot of these problems seem less important 6 months or a year from now, but I guess I agree this shouldn’t undercut discussion of changes that could help preserve the long-term poker economy.

    One thing that bothers me about many of the proposed solutions is that a lot of the pleasure I derive from poker comes from the game of adjustment and re-adjustment that occurs between players who are trying to exploit one another’s tendencies. It’s like a puzzle, figuring out how people play and how to capitalize on that. I fear that many of the proposed ideas (such as anonymous play or RUSH poker) would create a situation where people are just trying to approximate GTO lines. Not only is that a less interesting kind of poker, but in the long run bots will prove better at it than humans.

  12. wrt your meeting with Stars, I would like to suggest the following:

    I definitely agree that something needs to be done to prevent the data-mining and player information sharing seen on such sites as PTR and SS.

    Rather than anonymous tables, screen name changes, or drastic changes to the lobbies, I wonder if such data-minding can’t be prevented technologically. I realize that the general consensus on the forums is that it can’t be done, but I think it’s something the Stars technical team and security people should investigate on their own.

    When you look at computer technology ten years ago, there were a lot of things that people said could never be controlled or prevented, and what you see today is that while the battle is ongoing, governments, corporations and even individual computer users have achieved a level of security and control which was at one time thought to be impossible. To say it somewhat differently, if you create enough barriers to doing something, not only will many companies or start-ups be deterred from even trying, but when someone succeeds, it will be easier to narrow down what they’ve done and take any additional measures necessary to stop them.

    To be clear, I do believe it’s the data-mining itself that needs to be prevented. We have already seen numerous reasons why it’s not a good idea to try to prevent users from accessing such sites.

  13. Hi Phil great post, I agree that the discussion should be centered around what is best for the games overall. Really we want to make the fish feel as comfortable as possible.

    bum hunters do so many scummy things and offer nothing back to the poker community. I also will sometimes use their tactics to beat them to it as well I must unproudly say. I.e. if a fish busts and I know this regular will try to button me I would try to beat him to it. I never sit out when a fish busts without a reason though. I try to start games and I play regulars at HU a good amount. I think it’s sad that some regulars profit off of the things I’m doing, they’ll even sit in position on me for example when a fish joins as the table starts lol. So I actually get punished for starting the game, or when they join my table to play HU they’ll sit right to my left which I think is very sad. I always sit across from other regulars if I start a table with them, I think things should be fair not people trying to exploit things that go against the nature of the game. Unfortunately it is hard to think of a solution that can stop these things, I think it’d involve the site tracking in those specific situations how often a player is doing those tactics and somehow punishing them, but I don’t think that’ll happen. Or for people to improve their morals and actually try to be fair.

  14. Phil – thanks for sharing all your thoughts. Love your blog. How about putting a photo section? Would love more photos of you!

  15. Hello, Phil.

    I belive that you are a good and reasonable guy. If some people think that just some lame reload offers and promotions, web cams, game animations and other stuff will solve all problems for recreational players, they are not very smart. Do they really expect that we will then just start depositing tons of our money to a pokersite?

    Please explain to PokerStars and to your friends that recreational players or losing players in general are not some retards and also that we do not expect pokersites or anyone else to babysit us. But the fact is that we are the majority of players, without us online poker can not survive in the long term, do not forget that.

    We are also trying to improve our game and we also play to win or at least not to lose. Everybody should understand that most of us – recreational players, losing players, fish, net depositing players, etc. – primary want two things which are missing – fair poker environment and respect.

  16. Entertainment value for recreational or losing players? To play poker for getting entertainment and be ok with losing money or be willing to just give away the money for entertainment? Are you serious? I mean, there are many other better and cheaper forms of entertainment out there.

    Fair poker environment and respect!

  17. Wait!

    Maybe there is some truth in the entertainment value anyway. We have BB and bb. We could also have EV (expected value) and ev (entertainment value), EV for winning players and ev for losing players (the equiation needs refining):

    ev = ($Deposits – $Cashouts) / (SQRT($Cashouts) + 1)

    If you are a recreational player and your cashouts are bigger than your deposits, you then have –ev and some other players then could also have –EV (it makes sense).

    But if you do not make any cashouts, the equation then becomes very simple:

    ev = $Deposits

    Meaning, more deposits for more entertainment, more +ev for recreational players and also more +EV for some other players (it makes sense again).

    P.S.: Of course, this is only a lame joke.

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